1964 Beetle.

[whatucolm]

that was about 2/3 weeks ago.its improved a bit since.
the castor can be adjusted from about 4 to 10 degrees(with the car sitting level to the ground) by moving the shims on the top wishbone.more castor should help keep it stable in a straight line(i hope)but makes the steering a bit heavier.
the camber can be adjusted from about 1 degree positive,to about 3 degrees negative.
it has a mk2 steering rack-quick racks are easy enough to get hold of too.
i put rose joints on the end of the track-rods,so bump-steer can be adjusted there.
the shocks are Pro-Tech,if i remember rightly.they are easily adjustable for dampening,and the springs are cheap,so its easy change to different lenght/weight.the ones i got are a bit too short.
the shock top-mount is adjustable for heigth too-just in-case!

 

[trev]

that's deadly, well done!!!

tell me, does it all hang off the 4x frame head bolts or is there a tie-in point further back on the chassis?

 

[whatucolm]

thanks Trev.not really sure how it'll work yet-but will see soon i suppose.
it has two more mounting points towards the back,to the floor.theres place for a few more mounting points too,but i dont think it'll need then

 

[trev]

you've thought of everything, fair play

 

[Guest]

these pics are from my brothers mobile;

colm that looks the business, i bet you`d sell a load of these if you wanted too. seriously , to me that looks miles better than the red9 system

 

[whatucolm]

cheers Trev.theres a couple of little bits and pieces to do to finish it off.have to finish the steering column,and do some kind of anti-roll bar,but i think i'll try it without the anti-roll bar first-want to blow the dust/rust off it soon..

 

[JustinOval]

these pics are from my brothers mobile;

That looks very impressive. ..but I think ya made a balls of fitting them wheels.

 

[loui]

hi loui, i guess you`re colms brother ? welcome along to eircooled

Hi Baz,thats right. thanks for the welcome

 

[whatucolm]

colm that looks the business, i bet you`d sell a load of these if you wanted too. seriously , to me that looks miles better than the red9 system

ah-it looks a bit rougher in reality-im going to take it all apart at some stage and tidy it up and paint it properly-if it works ok.to be honest,i never want to try this again-too much time.it was from looking at the red9 one,and eyball engineering,and some other yokes i got the ideas.didnt have the dollars for them tho!

 

[Guest]

Hi Baz,thats right. thanks for the welcome

sound loui, i take it you`re the test pilot then ? how would one of these set ups go on a formula vee i wonder ?

 

[whatucolm]

]That looks very impressive. ..but I think ya made a balls of fitting them wheels.[/QUOTE]

ha,ha!..i think i've done worse before unfortunately..

 

[JustinOval]

sound loui, i take it you`re the test pilot then ? how would one of these set ups go on a formula vee i wonder ?

Wouldn't be allowed, would it..?

 

[whatucolm]

no,i'm fairly sure it wouldn't be allowed-its a heavy bast'd thing anyway,think it would only slow them down.i kind of wanted a bit more weight in the front of the beetle,not worried abour power to weight thing cos bigger turbos are cheap.

 

[knk]

You can't beat a well engineered double A-arm suspension set-up and the Locost 7 is one that has been developed over and over throughout the years. Also a great way to learn about suspension geometry as you are well aware of now Colm!

The only thing I'll suggest is lower the top 'A' Arm mounting bolts to the lower mounting option. This will give you a better set-up and improve cornering and bump steer. With the full weight of the car sitting on the ground you want the lower 'A' Arm sitting horizontal to the ground and the upper 'A' arm pointing slightly upwards. Then set-up your camber / toe settings.

The only other thing to remember is that this new improved front end suspension set-up will have an effect on the rear of the cars handling!

Really nice to see someone make their own set-up. Red9's product is stupidly overpriced and badly designed if you ask me. Nice work Colm!

 

[whatucolm]

You can't beat a well engineered double A-arm suspension set-up and the Locost 7 is one that has been developed over and over throughout the years. Also a great way to learn about suspension geometry as you are well aware of now Colm!

The only thing I'll suggest is lower the top 'A' Arm mounting bolts to the lower mounting option. This will give you a better set-up and improve cornering and bump steer. With the full weight of the car sitting on the ground you want the lower 'A' Arm sitting horizontal to the ground and the upper 'A' arm pointing slightly upwards. Then set-up your camber / toe settings.


The only other thing to remember is that this new improved front end suspension set-up will have an effect on the rear of the cars handling!

Really nice to see someone make their own set-up. Red9's product is stupidly overpriced and badly designed if you ask me. Nice work Colm!

thanks a million knk!
i have to admit though,i dont fully get you suggestion there.you see i,ve measured the bump-steer a good few times now,with laser gauges i borrowed from work,and i keep getting just under 0.2mm for the whole travel of the shock.thats without fine tuning it with shims at the outer end of the track rod.-i must be missing something? do you think its out?
i wasnt planning in using the bottom holes,as i thought they would throw the roll centre and camber gain way out?i could well be mistaken though?
to be honest i only put those there so if i got bored,i could see what the difference would be in reality, with a different roll-centre/camber gain.
the photos probablly confuse things too-the springs are too short there-with longer springs,i think the bottom wishbone will be fairly level with the ground,when its on its wheels.the angle between the wishbones is slightly less than yhe Locost,but with with a slightly narrower track,i think the roll-centra should be very similar-again,i could be totally wrong-this stuff's still new to me.
i didnt bother trying to look for a really low roll centre,as i read somewhere that if you have a high roll centre at the back,like a beetle,theres no having the front r.c really low.
another funny thing i read somewhere-"any car will handle,if you dont allow it too"-i.m hoping that means "stiffin the fook out of a swing-axel,and it'll handel"(shite,possibly?)

 

[whatucolm]

Hi Baz,thats right. thanks for the welcome

i thought it was a lovely post myself!

 

[loui]

sound loui, i take it you`re the test pilot then ? how would one of these set ups go on a formula vee i wonder ?

i hope so! Got one good spin behind the wheel already, with the original front, and it was very entertaining. Was one of the most exciting things i've ever driven, so am looking forward to another spin, this time it might feel a little less like Herbie was trying to steer a different path to me!

hey look Louis,Darragh dosnt like your post! ha,ha-did you fart or something?..

why,s that Darragh? do you mind me asking?

Well, i did, but i am still in bed, so that would have to mean..... :friend:

 

[knk]

thanks a million knk!
i have to admit though,i dont fully get you suggestion there.you see i,ve measured the bump-steer a good few times now,with laser gauges i borrowed from work,and i keep getting just under 0.2mm for the whole travel of the shock.thats without fine tuning it with shims at the outer end of the track rod.-i must be missing something? do you think its out?
i wasnt planning in using the bottom holes,as i thought they would throw the roll centre and camber gain way out?i could well be mistaken though?
to be honest i only put those there so if i got bored,i could see what the difference would be in reality, with a different roll-centre/camber gain.
the photos probablly confuse things too-the springs are too short there-with longer springs,i think the bottom wishbone will be fairly level with the ground,when its on its wheels.the angle between the wishbones is slightly less than yhe Locost,but with with a slightly narrower track,i think the roll-centra should be very similar-again,i could be totally wrong-this stuff's still new to me.
i didnt bother trying to look for a really low roll centre,as i read somewhere that if you have a high roll centre at the back,like a beetle,theres no having the front r.c really low.
another funny thing i read somewhere-"any car will handle,if you dont allow it too"-i.m hoping that means "stiffin the fook out of a swing-axel,and it'll handel"(shite,possibly?)

You are dead right, ignore the Roll Centre to some extent as it will not be your main concern for the Beetle set-up. To be honest my suggestion was more geared towards maintaining the correct camber more so than bump steer. If you are getting 0.2m difference throughout the full travel of the shock then you are fine. I use those Pro-tec shocks on everything for the last few years and they are great shocks. I would imagine the travel will be no more than 30mm in either direction when in use.

The reason behind having the top 'A' Arm pointing slightly upwards rather than level is that you want the length of the 'A' arm to be slightly shorter when not under load as this helps maintain the correct negative camber throughout the travel arc of the Arm. Changing the shocks to longer or shorter ones will have no effect on the path which the 'A' Arms travel through. Have you accounted for Body Roll? I mean lift the Jig up on one side by 3 or 4 inches and then measure camber/bump steer change throughout the travel of the suspension?

It's a hard thing to explain in writing...much easy to show in person!

 

[trev]

The reason behind having the top 'A' Arm pointing slightly upwards rather than level is that you want the length of the 'A' arm to be slightly shorter when not under load as this helps maintain the correct negative camber throughout the travel arc of the Arm.

I'm not as clued in as you guys are to the intricacies of suspension setup but is that ^^^ not only true if the upper and lower arms are the same length? Colm's setup above has much shorter arms on the top which will swing in a much tighter arc giving mucho camber gain when compressed...

 

[buggyboyshane]

I am totally in awe here, I had asked knk about helping me fabricate front cradle too! Great minds think alike 8)! I nearly shat myself when seen the speed of this thread! The slowness of the site has been driving me bonkers so havn't been on in couple of days. I just realised that you've done the work already and started the thread after lol.

I'm sooooo gonna melt your brain with questions in the coming months! Loving your front suspension design, where do you research about camber etc?

Keep it coming!!!